Former UFC heavyweight fighter Brendan Schaub and former MadTV cast member Bryan Callen are the hosts of the most popular MMA podcast in the world, The Fighter and the Kid. On paper, it seems like an odd couple mishmash of personalities, but a big part of the success of the show comes from the fact that Schaub isn’t your typical MMA fighter or talking head.
When I sat down with the co-hosts at FOX Sports in Los Angeles, it was easy to see their friendship, rapport and banter came from being truly like-minded. Schaub was an avid 1990s SNL viewer — at the same time Callen was on the competing late-night sketch comedy show — and had pipe dreams of going into comedy when he was younger.
Now the podcast has reached another medium: The Fighter and the Kid 3D, a webseries which hit No. 1 on the iTunes charts when it was released. It’s an unorthodox show, which doesn’t do any hand-holding narratively, has episodes of drastically variable lengths and is genuinely funny in a way that few athlete-driven shows manage to be. (Just take a look at Michael Strahan struggling through hosting The $100,000 Pyramid, if you don’t believe me.)
The two men, who originally met on the set of The Ultimate Fighter when Schaub was a contestant, began collaborating when Schaub moved to California and lived a mile away from Callen. Schaub didn’t know anyone in town, so he started hanging out with Callen and his friends.
“I noticed he was into fashion, and he loved to laugh and he had a really good sense of humor,” says Callen. “I was with a friend of mine who was with a comedian, and [Brendan] was telling a story, and [my friend] said, ‘You’re a really good storyteller.’ And he didn’t hear it. He was in the middle of his story. But this is a comedian, who went, ‘You’re a really good storyteller.’ And I remember going, ‘Yeah, he is a really good storyteller,’ because he was making all these comedians laugh.
“And then we sat down, me and Joe Rogan and him at [a Metamoris MMA event], and he’s making us laugh, me and Rogan, cackling, at what an upstart he was in UFC, and what a moron he was to be like, ‘Give me Nogueira.’ He’s like, ‘Somebody ought to sit this kid down and tell him that he’s absolutely not ready for Nogueira.’ And he was so self-deprecating, in a sport that requires the opposite, almost. And when he went to the bathroom, Rogan went, ‘That guy is smart and funny.’
“And then we did a couple podcasts on my old podcast and he came across so well and he said no, and I said, ‘We’ll talk about MMA!’ He goes, ‘I’d rather be at the dentist. I will do a podcast if we just talk about life.’ And then the rest is history.”
Callen praised Schaub’s business mind, saying he’s always thinking about opportunities and things that will work and angles they can capitalize on. Callen freely admits something must be going right after 3.5 million downloads of the podcast, and gives Schaub the credit for their overwhelming popularity.
Schaub himself says he didn’t realize how big the show had gotten until a fan called him by his “Big Brown” nickname at the airport while he was on his way to a fight, but the fan didn’t watch MMA … he was just an avid listener of the podcast. In fact, “Big Brown,” the nickname Callen gave Schaub on the podcast, eventually superseded his original “Hybrid” UFC nickname. When Bruce Buffer began introducing Schaub as “Big Brown” in the Octagon, they knew their show was a true force to be reckoned with.
At this point, they’ve been the No. 1 most-viewed podcast in sports and overall for 26 months straight, which explains why FOX wanted to capitalize on another medium for them. The company asked Schaub and Callen if they had an idea for a TV show, and their response was: “Thought you’d never ask! Do we ever!” After they wrote their initial pitch, FOX thought it “wasn’t FOX material.” “Well, this ain’t for FOX,” replied Brendan. Luckily, FOX still wanted to be a partner in their venture, which ended up becoming The Fighter and the Kid 3D.
“We were doing the Louis CK model,” explains Schaub. “Which I believe wholeheartedly in, where it’s for the fans. And if you stay true to that, and loyal, and you don’t try to aim to please everyone, you’re doing something right. So now we’re in discussions to do a Fighter and the Kid actual TV show, and we’ll see how that goes.”
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ahyFoPPNDEk&feature=youtu.be
UPROXX: With The Fighter and the Kid 3D, it sort of goes all over the place and doesn’t make a lot of attempts to explain itself to people who aren’t familiar with the two of you, which is part of what makes the show work. What was your mindset in approaching the series?
Bryan Callen: We just tried to do something as original as possible. In other words, it’s one thing to be funny and silly, which is always important, but I think that Brendan and I — and Mitch Rouse, who was at the helm — we kind of said, “What haven’t we seen before?”
Brendan Schaub: We also did what we thought was funny. When they asked us to write 12 episodes … when we originally brought the script to them, [they said] “We can’t put this on FOX.” We were like, “But this isn’t for FOX. This is for the loyal Fighter and the Kid army.” And I’ve always been under the impression — I’ve told Bryan and Mitch the same thing — as long as you’re pleasing your loyal fans, you’re good, man. They’ll tell other people who have same similarities [in taste] and it branches out from there. But once you start to go, “Well, what would everyone like,” then you’re just some gimmick bullshit show.
BC: That’s a huge point. That’s a huge point, too.
BS: That’s my number one concern. It’s for our fans. Everyone else can kick rocks.
BC: When you’re business-minded about your artistic expression, your comedic expression or whatever, I suppose that can work for some people, but I’ve never seen it — it certainly isn’t very inspired, and I don’t think you’re going to come up with something that surprises people.
BS: But also, with The Fighter and the Kid 3D — which is obviously over now, season one is done, we’re talking about season two and other TV shows now — the idea of Bryan and I doing something different, where you see a lot of podcasts try to do live shows, or do TV shows and it just doesn’t correlate. Well, our live shows are better than our podcasts. We sell more live show tickets, really, than anything else, because it’s an actual show. When Bryan came up with the idea to do live shows, I went, “Dude, two guys speaking on a mic is completely different live.” He goes, “I know; we’re not going to do a podcast.” Obviously I’m not going to say the name, but [at] very famous other podcasters’ live shows, I’m like, “This is boring as hell, man.” Bryan goes, “No, no. We’re going to do a performance. It’s gonna be a comedy show performance.” So that’s what we’ve been doing. And again, I don’t think other podcasters or entertainers are doing that. Especially as a tandem.
It’s clear you guys are having fun doing this. That’s clear not only in the presentation and the content, but the fact that the show is all over the place with variable lengths and no set narrative.
BC: Well remember, we didn’t have the resources and we didn’t have a lot of time, so I was very proud of what we were able to do. And to FOX’s credit, they let us do anything we want. So that was pretty cool. We weren’t even sure what we were gonna … I think it surprised us, a lot of times. Certainly the writing process was a surprise. “Let’s follow that thread and see if we can get away with it.”
What stuff in TFATK3D specifically came from bits on the podcast?
BS: I was obsessed with Naked and Afraid. I would watch every episode and then I would talk about it on the show. I’m like, “Last night, I think it’s super suspect how they always catch snakes.” I think they’re NyQuiled snakes, like they’re getting NyQuil, and then, “Oh, look what we stumbled upon.” The snakes wouldn’t attack or anything. So then we started talking about it back and forth [on the podcast], and then that was the original first episode idea, was Naked and Afraid, and then “Bully,” a lot of it, came from —
BC: Yeah, Will Sasso. “Apache” came from … we went to Cherokee nation. In that area, where there were a lot of Cherokee.
BS: We were doing a show in Oklahoma.
BC: And Brendan looked way more Native American — at least traditionally — than any Cherokee I met. And I always say that he looks, he’s basically 100 percent Cherokee.
BS: That’s why the nickname “Big Brown” is there.
BC: Yeah! And so we were like, “What if, with all this talk about gender and gay marriage and stuff, what if we do a sketch about the first gay marriage in the West?”
BS: And the night before, I just happened to watch Brokeback Mountain. I’d never seen it before, and it was on TV. I’m like, “Yeah! I’ll watch Brokeback Mountain!” And then [the Apache episode] went down this crazy rabbit hole.
BC: Yeah! You’re an Apache. You wound me in a fight and I’m a cowboy and we fall in love. And that kind of stuff. Exploring where that goes.
BS: We probably wrote … I dunno, 200 ideas and only … you see 12 of them.
In watching the show, even if you’re not at all familiar with the podcast, you can get into it within the first minute, in part because of how talented you both are. Bryan, you’ve been doing this a long time, but Brendan’s enthusiasm in particular is really infectious.
BC: Well, the big question was whether or not Brendan could do this. This is not easy, sketch and acting. He’s a professional athlete. So when you take somebody and you say, “Hey, dude. By the way, you’re going to be doing this. You’re going to be acting, you’re going to be doing characters. You’re going to have to react emotionally and we’re going to have to believe you.”
I — rightfully so, because I’ve been in this business so long and I know how hard it is — I thought the big challenge [was] I don’t know if Brendan’s going to be able to do that. Just because he hasn’t done it.
But the great surprise — and to everyone who’s been talking about it, including big directors and actors that are friends with me — are saying the dude’s a natural. The dude can act, and the guy pulled it off. That is very difficult. How many athletes do you see, when they try to do things, it turns out to be a disaster? He has a great imagination. He’s a creative guy.
Yeah, a lot of the athletes you see, they just have no charisma, no personality.
BS: Yeah, because they really don’t have to develop one. You know how it is. In your high school, usually the biggest athlete, people are drawn to him. It’s almost like the hot girl. You ever met the hottest girl — especially in high school, her personality never develops, because people are going to her. She doesn’t have to. It’s the same thing with most professional athletes. They’re the big stud; everyone’s going to them, everyone’s giving them everything. They really don’t have to develop a personality.
I was never that kid, man. I was always the underdog and I always … I was blessed with athletic abilities and size, but I always felt like my goal was always Saturday Night Live. It wasn’t to play in the NFL. I had a dream [of acting], but it was always a pipe dream. I was in Denver, Colorado, playing college football and I would say, “My dream would be Saturday Night Live.” People would be like, “You’re a football player. Unless you become Tom Brady, it ain’t happening.” I get it.
BC: Your mom was saying she always thought you would become an actor.
BS: Yeah, since I was little. I’d always do shows …
BC: She said, “I’d always figured you were going to be a performer.”
BS: I was just this … it’s like from that movie Shark Tale, I’m like the Great White disguised as a dolphin. I’ve been a dolphin, man, I just happened to be trapped in this Great White body. I’m this dolphin that likes to perform and I finally found a vehicle to help me out and to help me do it. Which is crazy. I have no idea how we got here. I couldn’t tell you.
BC: I didn’t get into this business to be a comedian, which is so funny. I wanted to be Robert De Niro, Christopher Walken and Al Pacino.
BS: Like a drama actor?
BC: Yeah. That was what was cool. You wanted to do great, cool stuff. The idea that I was going to be a comedian or could be a comedian was, again, a total surprise to me. I was always the funny guy with my friends, but I never … I kind of spent a great deal of time working on my dramatic chops.
BS: You thought you were going to be Daniel Day-Lewis.
BC: [laughs] Yes, I did. And then I realized, well, that’s just not my … I’ve done a lot of that stuff onstage, but it wasn’t what I liked to do. I liked to be silly.
What was the most fun you two had filming the series?
BS: For me — because Bryan’s been around it, being on MadTV, Sex and the City, Entourage, all the shit he’s done, all the famous stuff he’s done … The Hangover 1, 2, blah blah blah — for me, the funniest thing was “Brendan’s Replacement.” Because I’ve never worked with improv actors. And so Mitch goes, “Don’t worry.” Because he’s from Second City in Chicago, and he goes, “Don’t worry, I’ll line the guys up.” So I’m like, alright, cool, man.
If you’ve seen the episode, you know the story. We set up interviews. Well the guys sit down … I’ve never met [them] before, I don’t know them. There was no script, it’s just you and I do your thing.
BC: And he’s interviewing a lot of these monster improv guys.
BS: Dude, I’m telling you: we couldn’t get through some of it, because I was laughing so. Hard. That was probably my favorite day.
What’s your relationship with MMA these days? Do you both stay completely tuned in?
BS: I don’t miss [any events]. I don’t go to them live anymore. I went to a Bellator live fight for business, but in general, I’ve been invited to them live, I really don’t go to them. I think it’s kind of my job. I still do the fight companions with Joe Rogan where we break down fights. Bryan and I break down fights all the time on The Fighter and the Kid.
Because people want to tune into an unbiased view of the current state of the UFC. Let’s say you’re going to buy a car. Let’s say you’re going to buy a Dodge. I’m not going to Dodge to find out how great a Dodger is. I’m going to someone else to talk about this, because they’re going to give me an unbiased answer.
So with the UFC, I don’t have a boss over there. They don’t pay the bills for The Fighter and the Kid, they have nothing to do with the show. I fought for the UFC for seven years, some of my best friends still fight. I know the game probably better than anyone. I’d say I have my Masters as far as UFC and business goes in mixed martial arts. So I’m not biased. I’m very even. If there’s a huge issue, I’m gonna tell you really what’s going down.
And I think that’s why a lot of our listeners who really are MMA fans are like, “This is refreshing.” Because if — granted, we’re in FOX Sports right now, but the rule, when we signed [with them] is, they can’t edit anything. What I say is what I say. So if I do a show on FOX — which I’ve done a million times — there’s a producer in my ear, going, “Say this. Make sure you comment on this.” And I’m like, “Well, I don’t feel that way.”
You can’t write how I feel about Brock Lesnar testing positive for PEDs and getting an exemption, and honey-dicking us into thinking he was clean. I’m not cool with that. So I’m not gonna … just because you pay my bills, you can force me to say that, because you are paying my bills. Well now, you wanna talk to fuckin’ customer relations? Yeah, what’s up, man? I’m Brendan, this is Bryan. What’s your issue? Oh, customer service? Yeah, he’s right here, his name is Bryan Callen. Tell him how shitty my opinion on the UFC is. Let me know how that goes.
So I think it’s refreshing. And it’s the new model of digital media, where you can be as honest as you want, where guys in the past couldn’t. If this was the past, trust me, the UFC would have shut me down by now. They would have. I wouldn’t be on any FOX outlets or anything. You want “As Real As It Gets,” the old UFC slogan? Cool, man, listen to The Fighter and the Kid. They don’t pay my bills.