First off, Barry and Olie’s convo happened at S.T.A.R. Labs, not the future Hall of Justice. It was in the room Wells/Thawne used in season 1.
That aside, I really liked Arrow in this. For some reason he is a much better character – or at least much more likeable – when he crosses over onto The Flash. And I disagree about Olie’s speech not being meaningful. He is basically letting Barry forgive himself, and that is important, too. Some grand gesture will come around that will get everyone else back on board, but Barry also needs to stop beating himself up over it. Sara said she wanted to do stuff to bring Laurel back and didn’t, but if she didn’t have someone to stop her, she would have. Olie was also right in that anyone would have done what Barry did.
This episode was one of the best hours of television I have ever watched. That might sound insane to people who love great shows like The Wire, Breaking Bad, etc., but this was truly an excellent episode of television for fans of the series and of the Berlanti-verse in general. I can’t wait for Wednesday and Thursday night’s episodes.
“but Barry also needs to stop beating himself up over it.”
Sure, but it would be nice if the show actually stuck Barry with some real and lasting consequences.
I agree with everything you said. If we ever meet in person, we will high five.
I set the DVr to record arrow and legends just to close out the crossover. I only watch flash and super girl regularly as I find arrow to be too soap operaish and legends never caught my interest with the horrible hawk girl and guy centered plot. This crossover is a lot of characters to follow but caught my interest enough to follow through the week.
You may want to give LoT another shot. Season 2 has been loads better, primarily because they dumped the Hawks and Rip Hunter, who were all boring as shit. Now it’s basically “Doctor Who with superheroes”.
You should watch Arrow. It is by far the best hero show on regular tv at the moment. The soap opera stuff has been kept to a minimum
Um… that’s “Skirt and Heat Wave” spin-off.
had hope for kid flash, but wally is annoying
That anyone would consider going back and changing the past to save a loved one? No, that’s not nonsense. It’s not a complete enough answer for everything Barry did, but it’s also not a trivial idea to be dismissed. Half of these characters have done nearly the same thing, or strongly contemplated it. Oliver used the pit on Thea, giving her a bloodlust she didn’t ask for, Sara spent part of season one and most of season two of Legends dead set on changing the timeline to bring her sister back. Her criticism of Barry feels really hollow considering she very nearly did the same thing on multiple occasions. Then there’s Cisco, who’s rightly upset with Barry, but really doesn’t have any moral high ground to stand on considering he was asking Barry to go back and change time just weeks ago. So he’s mad that Barry had the audacity to change time, even though in a weak moment of grief he wanted Barry to do the exact same thing for him? I have a really hard time buying into the “Barry is a horrible person who deserves to be hated” thing when he acted in a weak moment of grief the exact same way countless DC universe characters have. It’s not like Barry hasn’t recognized that this was colossal mistake. From all appearances so far this season he seems to have learned his lesson about time travel, even if he should have learned it a long time ago. In this entire situation the one thing the writers have done right, is allowing characters to vent their frustration with Barry and having him not make excuses for it. Barry may do stupid things, but they are always rooted in grief. To borrow from Rebecca Bunch, it’s a lot more nuance than just saying Barry is an unforgivable idiot.
That all being said, the writers might very well be idiots. This show was so great in season one because it knew how to balance the fun side of things with the serious. Each new season of the show is a reaction to the last, rather than a continuation of it. There has to be a way to create villians and conflicts without it always being “oops Barry screwed up, now there are new villains, and everyone is depressed about it.”
As someone who has lost loved ones and wishes he could go back to see them or change things, I absolutely understand the impulse. But Barry has changed history multiple times, and every time, it has resulted in terrible unintended consequences — including a rip in the space-time continuum that nearly destroyed the entire universe and resulted in the death of Ronnie. He should know better by now, even with the pain of Henry’s death so new and raw, and I’m as annoyed with the show for having him do it again (because it makes me dislike Barry, and because it has taken away most of what’s good about Cisco) as I am with him.
Didn’t Barry or someone already call Cisco out on this, when he gave up Barry’s identity to save his brother?
That’s a fair point and I don’t disagree. I guess my problem is less with Barry and more with the writers. They keep putting these characters in the worst situations. As an audience member, I can see Barry accepting he messed up and not making excuses. I can’t say the same about thing about the writers.
// I’m as annoyed with the show for having him do it again (because it makes me dislike Barry, and because it has taken away most of what’s good about Cisco) as I am with him. //
Diggle being upset that he didn’t have a daughter wasn’t exactly flattering to the son he has now.
Exactly. Like, if the son was older and they had shown a strained relationship, or had given any indication that he had preferred a daughter, maybe I could see him being upset. But basically being told “there was an alternate world where you had a daughter instead”? Why would that affect an otherwise happy person?
I think it would have made sense if that triggered memories of his daughter.Or actually show that he wanted a daughter. But they didn’t, so, it was stupid.
Barry/Gustin makes everything better so it’s unfortunate the writers have written him into a corner at the moment. Barry has suffered losses over multiple timelines so you would think Cisco would understand his frustration. I still think this timeline will be reset. Throwing away two seasons worth of characters for slightly similar yet different characters seems irresponsible. Or were they just trying to make the Iris/Barry relationship work without it being weird? Where is Rip Hunter? Probably trying to undo Barry’s mistakes maybe?
Enjoyed the crossover. Kara is awesome. Not caught up with Supergirl. Arrow has been better this season, but at this point I don’t know that I can be pleased anymore. Too many masked villains and waiting for reveals to drop. Just make a good show rather trying to appease fans.
Good call on Cisco on twitter, Alan. When The Flash undoes this mess it will probably be pretty lame
Arrow seems to be cleaning up their mess this season, which is nice. I have high hopes for them going forward
The only real problem I had is that Supergirl really felt like a tertiary character and never got to be “one of the gang”. That’s not her fault because she has never interacted with any of these people outside of Barry before. But it just left me feeling like things were a little “off”.
In a perfect world, she would have had a little more time to get to know everyone a bit better before heading straight to the action. But it’s a relatively minor complaint.
I agree with the complaints about Cisco being a sad sack. Stop it, Cisco.
The problem is that this is how Cisco should react. The death of his brother being the fault of his best friend is a big thing that can’t just be swept under the rug. But that’s another reason why Flashpoint was such a poor creative choice.
My boys and I watch Flash and Legends of Tomorrow but they’ve been looking forward to the crossover since it was first announced (9 and 13 year old boys + lots of superheroes = awesome). We don’t recognize half of the characters but we’re enjoying it anyway. And the casting for Supergirl is spot-on perfect.
One question – Barry mentioned that he owned the Hall of Justice part of Star Labs and I thought I saw his ownership of Star Labs mentioned somewhere else as well. I’ve been watching from the beginning and have no recollection of this – can someone fill me in?
RE: Barry owning Star Labs…
I think it was in Season 2, Barry was given a digital copy of Harrison Wells (Reverse Flash) final will and testiment.
In it, Wells leaves him Star Labs and asks anybody viewing the recording to stop watching so he can speak directly to Barry.
Then, he concedes that if Barry is watching this, then he must have beaten Reverse Flash and that, in his own way, he’s proud of Barry (which is why he left him Star Labs, etc).
And in a way, Barry is touched by this, because for a while, they did have that bond (which is what made Season 1 so great, especially when Wells had to kill Cisco).
Now, it may not have happened exactly like that, but that’s how I remember it.
1) To be honest, I think they should have gotten to Savitar sooner and last week’s episode should have been revealed Savitar was the one who really messed up the timeline. With how horrible everything has been, they are going to take the blame off Barry at some point.
2) They really screwed up the Supergirl part. The crossover should have started earlier in her show so they could have made her feel more part of the group for Flash’s episode. She seemed just kind of there, as opposed to the Wonder Woman to Flash’s Superman and Arrow’s Batman.
Supergirl is perfect in everything (and really helped me get over my ex-gf Patty Spivot).
So, quiet, you!
Am I the only one that thought it was hilarious that Sara was the “voice of reason” and called Barry out on how irresponsible it is to change the timeline? Practically every mission she not only endangers the crew but risks major changes to the timeline in her quest to kill Damien Dark.
Enjoying the crossover, but I thought the whole “heroes vs Heroe” battle scene was a little too “Civil War”-ish. Seemed like a cheap tv knockoff.
I say that understanding that the heroes kick alien ass part is coming soon…
Since no one else seems to be in my boat, I will say I only watch Supergirl (and only started this season, I had to go back and catch up). I have never seen a single episode of any of the other 3 shows. I found the episode entertaining and because I had no idea who anyone was, I thought they did a pretty good job of explaining major plots to an outsider. I am planning on watching the next 2 installments, but I do wish they had put more of the crossover into Supergirl this week. (although it was a good episode, it was completely unrelated to anything happening here)
Are you going to cover tonight’s Arrow too? Surely there will be more to say. :P
Watching these shows back to back really highlights the issues with them, especially from a budget perspective. Twenty minutes of this episode was just characters standing around an empty warehouse, and Supergirl has so many fight scenes in alleyways/warehouses/basements that if you took a shot for each one you’d die of alcohol poisoning in an hour. Fewer episodes of each series would not only tighten the storytelling, but maybe they’d actually have money for some decent filming locations.