Quick, name a stone-cold burger pro. There are a few — I like to think I’m among their ranks — but two very solid answers are George Motz and Alvin Cailan. Through their respective shows, Burger Scholar and The Burger Show, the duo has taught us more about the art of a great burger than just about anyone alive. Together, Motz and Cailan make an interesting combo — Motz, the historian keeps us informed about the legacy of burgers, where they come from, and how they differ from region to region; Cailan represents where burgers are going and the future of burger craft.
That’s why it made perfect sense for the pals to team up last month for First We Feast’s new road show — Burger Bucket List.
While Burger Bucket List was a short-lived affair — only three episodes long, airing during this year’s “Burger Month” — the run included Motz and Cailan chopping it up with Sean Evans, enjoying burger omakase with Elizebeth Olsen, delving into burger science with Neil deGrasse Tyson, and hunting down Oklahoma’s greatest fried onion burger. Each episode delivers 20 minutes of the greatest cheeseburger content we’ve been served up all year! Can you blame us for wanting more?
To satiate our appetite for good burger content, we linked up with Motz and Cailan to talk all things burgers — including why stepping away from the coast is a pilgrimage all burger lovers must experience. The pair also breaks down their favorite fast food cheeseburgers, including each’s ultimate Five Guys build. Let’s dive in!
What have you guys enjoyed most about doing Burger Bucket List?
George Motz: I mean, personally me, all of it. It’s all good. I mean, the great thing about the show is that we designed it ourselves, so we could do what we want to do. I was talking to an unnamed big Hollywood director and I said, “Well, why does this scene take place in Paris?” She said, “Because we wanted to go to Paris.”
Why do we go to Oklahoma? Because why not? We wanted to go to Oklahoma. We also wanted to show people just how great the place is. Everyone sees it as a flyover state. They don’t see it as a place to go on vacation or stop. People always say, “Why’d you go there?” And so I think Alvin and I, our goal is to try to excite people to get out there and travel and eat at the same time, and where better than Oklahoma?
Alvin Cailan: I think that we could kind of live in a world where we forget where and why we love burgers so much. The goal of the show is to spread the knowledge of why we love burgers so much in this country, where it comes from, and the good people behind it. I think Oklahoma was definitely the one destination that really tugged at the heartstrings because, man, that was an experience to see and to taste.
Even with the New York “Burger by Budget “episode, I think it was really cool to show the spectrum of burgers that you can get from $5 to $30 in New York City. I think our viewers love that stuff. They made us make a list of what we wanted to do and they gave us what we wanted. That’s why it was called the “Bucket List.”
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It looks like you guys are having a lot of fun. I don’t think that’s something you can really fake.
I did want to talk about Oklahoma and that episode specifically. So far, you’ve already looked at New York City, you’ve already looked at Los Angeles. Those are two obvious burger places. You touched on this a little bit in terms of people thinking of it as a flyover state, but why is it so important to share other places that are great burger cities? What are some of the other great burger cities that might not be on the top of people’s minds?
George Motz: We don’t think of it so much as by city, but by region. A perfect example would be the state of Wisconsin. We’ve got a lot of room to move, I mean, if we could keep going, you’d have season after season because the entire area of say, Chicago and Milwaukee, Wisconsin, there’s so much going on there alone. You could do four episodes right there. A lot of travel right there. That’s just one spot. That’s important for people to see that there’s not just bi-coastal… Even Miami, which is not really… It’s a destination, Miami, Just like in New York or LA, but you go there and there’s a lot to do there. There are a lot of burgers to eat there. It’s incredible.
Alvin Cailan: There’s kind of this weird secret handshake amongst burger lovers. Right? If you go to Northern California, there’s a group of people who all came from the same restaurant and have their own restaurants. And that’s how the regionality starts. That’s what I feel is the backbone of our show. So to answer your question, favorite city or cities that we love, George is right, it’s all regional really. New Mexico is one of my favorites and Texas as a whole. Driving down to 10, just the burger restaurants along the 10 freeway, it’s completely different and no one ever talks about them. So it’s definitely cool to show people that side of burgers on the show.
George Motz: Yeah. Also, Alvin pointed out in the first episode that we did together, it was the second episode of The Burger Show, our goal really for the entire show, whether we were doing something separately — I was doing Burger Scholar sessions or we did the burger stuff on the road — was to show that it has regionality like barbecue. And he pointed out wisely the first time we worked together that hamburgers really can have regionality in the same way. And regional difference is the same way that barbecue does in America.
So I think that’s also important to point out, that the show has a place because of that.
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I want to bring up something that you said, George, in that episode. You called Oklahoma one of your favorite places to eat burgers because it’s a place unaffected by times and trends. I was wondering if you could break that down a little bit more to kind of tantalize people going into the episode.
George Motz: Sure. I mean, if you think about what’s happened to the American hamburger in the last 120 years, it’s become diluted. It’s changed. It’s become personal. I’d like to say that the hamburger came from the Midwest. We know that there are probably eight to 10, seven to nine claims that somehow stretched along what I also call the burger belt, which goes from Texas, all the way up to Wisconsin, all through the middle center of the Midwest.
There are a lot of claims to the birthplace of the hamburger. So if you imagine the burger starting there, and then going out from there, and then becoming diluted and time goes by, you imagine that also the original burgers, we know what they should be. And we know for a fact that in the Midwest, they haven’t changed at all. The burgers that exist on the East Coast and the West Coast are really just facsimiles or copies of what happened in the Midwest.
That’s really what I was trying to say that you do find these places that have been around and are unaffected by time and trends because there’s no reason for them to change. If they change, they go out of business because people are like, “What happened? What’d you do? That was the burger my grandfather ate, and my great-grandfather ate. Why’d you change that?” And the burger that we had looked at, the very last burger we had on the show, the El Reno Oklahoma onion burger, the fried onion burger, that last year, celebrated a hundred years. I mean, it’s a 100-year-old burger. And honestly, not much has changed about that burger apparently.
Right. Yeah. I mean, when something’s good, why change it?
George Motz: Exactly. Why take that risk?
In the episode, you mentioned the burger belt. That’s not something I’ve ever heard of before, is that real?
George Motz: Well, I made it up. If I look at my own Google Maps, I’m looking at one actually right now on my computer, I make maps. I know where I need to go and know where I’ve been. And I look at my burger maps and there’s a very, very pronounced high volume of hamburger spots that go from Texas, kind of going northeast towards Wisconsin if you draw a line. I’d like to say also, you saw in the show that the buckle of that belt really could be somewhere between Oklahoma, Kansas area right there. That really is the buckle. It’s basically in the center of the country.
That’s worth traveling for!
Alvin Cailan: Oh, yeah. I highly recommend it. Burgers in California and in Los Angeles especially, you eat in your car. When I went to Oklahoma, people were eating burgers and hanging out. It was like, they stop and smell the roses. That’s to me, so different. It was like everyone knew each other. It was definitely an experience that if you’re not used to, it was definitely something I was just so impressed by.
What’s special about that experience? How does that kind of enhance the burger-eating experience for you?
Alvin Cailan: Right now, I’m literally in my kitchen cooking burgers. It kind of shows the lineage that I’m continuing. And to see like-minded people who appreciate the craft of being a burger guy, and even the customers who love it is different, because in LA and New York… It’s a very fast five-minute interaction with your customer. You may or may not ever see them again because there’s a burger restaurant opening every 10 minutes. Right? And over there, it’s like the same restaurant that’s been there for the last 70 years. And you don’t see that much anymore, especially if you’re living on the coast.
George Motz: That’s true.
Who makes your favorite fast food or fast casual burger? What makes it the best? What are you looking for when you’re looking for that type of burger?
Alvin Cailan: Okay. So this is a conversation that I’ve had quite a bit and I’ve done an extensive amount of research in my life — Body by burger, clothing by burger, but if I’m going to answer the question, I’m a big fan… We’re talking about chains and global chains, right? I want to talk about Five Guys.
I think Five Guys is the most underrated, almost-hated-on burger, but it’s honestly up to you. You hold the power of whether or not that burger is great because you can choose the toppings and you can choose 17 toppings on a burger. Right? And I think, I feel like people overdo it, but I’ve had a great experience with Five Guys. Whether it be in Dubai or whether it be in any other country, and then locally, I’ve had a great experience with them. And they keep it pure. It’s one of those places where you can tell why they’re around and why they’re still growing. You know what I mean?
George Motz: I would say without a doubt, Steak ‘N Shake, another Midwestern chain that started in 1936 or 37, somewhere in there. Nothing’s changed. I mean, they opened up new locations. It looks like you’re sitting at the counter in front of the griddles right there. You talk to the guy behind the griddle, the women, or whatever, and it’s all the same. I don’t think anything’s changed in many, many years.
The only thing they took out was they used to grind beef in the middle of the restaurant with a corral. So everyone could see its fresh beef, which obviously, that became weird and probably illegal.
But without a doubt, Steak ‘N Shake, it’s one of those places that just has not really changed in almost a hundred years. And it’s important because again, when you go through the Midwest, you look at that burger belt, there’s one section of the burger belt that runs the entire length of Illinois. And you draw a line from St. Louis, all the way up almost to Chicago. It has its own burger belt. It’s actually what we called the Lacy Edge burger belt. There must be 30 or 40 different places along that route, Chicago from St. Louis, which are all just the Lacy Edge thin, smashed burgers, which were created obviously with the invention of the flatiron grill. This flat steel could then drain grease off, because you couldn’t do it any other way back then.
And of course, as you know, Steak ‘N Shake is from that same region, born I think, in Indiana and Normal… Sorry, Normal, Illinois, right in the middle of the state.
Both are amazing choices, I think.
George Motz: I’m also a fan of Five Guys.
I feel like what Alvin said was kind of right though. Five Guys does get an unusual amount of hate, I’ve noticed. Why do you think that is? Do you think that’s the price point? Do you think that’s just because the customizable aspect makes it that so many things can go wrong? Because I see people do this with Chipotle as well. They’ll make a burrito that has —
Alvin Cailan: Yes, I was going to say that!
They’ll make a burrito that has everything in it, and then wonder why it’s not working. And it’s like, “You’re why it’s not working.”
George Motz: Yeah. That’s why people ask us. I’m sure people ask Alvin all the time, “What’s your order from Five Guys?” People ask me all the time, and they want to know because there’s nothing worse than walking there and going like, “Give me everything or give me this and that. I’m sorry, give me that.” Because really, honestly, as a chef who knows over there as Alvin knows for sure, is that come on guys, really, it’s the chef that knows what you want to eat, not yourself. That’s why they’re chefs.
Alvin Cailan: Right. And also, decision-making, it’s very important. And I feel like a lot of people, they see all of these things and they see no cost extra on the menu, and they’re just like, “Man, I could put all this stuff in my burger and it won’t cost anything.”
George Motz: They’re also hungry.
Alvin Cailan: They’re like, “Where’s the burger? I hate this burger. Where’s the burger?” It’s like, “Dude, you put 17 things in there and you shouldn’t have. That bun can’t even hold it.” I read the Yelp reviews all the time and I’m like, “Dude, I don’t know if that option shoots them in the foot or it keeps people coming because it’s just crazy.”
George Motz: What is your order? Alvin, do you have one single order you do?
Alvin Cailan: Yeah. So they have two different patties. They have two patties. They have a smaller patty and a bigger patty. I like to get a double of the smaller patty, double cheese, raw onions, pickles, mustard, and mayo. That’s it.
George Motz: Oh yeah, that’s perfect. There you go.
Alvin Cailan: Yeah. Simple burger. Because at the end of the day, in its purest form there, it’s the best, I think. And I’ve traveled. They have a really great trading system because it’s not far off. The only time I hate Five Guys is when you have it delivered to your house because something happens when it gets delivered, but I don’t know if it’s the delivery time or the bag they stuff the burger in, but it’s way better at the restaurant.
Interviewer: Definitely. Definitely.
George Motz: My Five Guy order: Double cheeseburger, pickles, raw onion, mayonnaise, and barbecue sauce.
Alvin Cailan: Yo. Nice, nice.
George Motz: Every single time.
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What do you think… And I don’t know if this might be a mean question, but we’ll word it in a way that’s not mean — whose fast food burger do you think needs the most work? What could they do to make it better? Because there’s a lot of them out there and I’ll just go ahead and say it. I think Burger King’s really dropping the ball lately.
Alvin Cailan: Oh hell, yes.
George Motz: Personally, it’s a short answer for me. Let me answer quickly first is that I haven’t really been to any of the top three to judge. That’s the problem. I mean, spent so much time consumed with old-school burgers that are between 20 and a hundred years old. And I mean, small mom and pops and I have avoided fast food, most of the fast food guys, the big three, at least for a year. So I couldn’t judge.
Alvin Cailan: They have this whole thing right now where there’s talk about McDonald’s changing their bun and their method of process. None of that makes me want to run to a McDonald’s and buy a McDonald’s burger. But I think generally speaking, my biggest pet peeve when it comes to fast food chains is when people go, “Oh you have to go to the one in East LA. It’s better there.” It’s like when I go to New York and I want to get Shake Shack, I go to the one at Madison Square Park because I always love that one, but I hate going to… the one in Battery Park, I hate it. You know what I mean? So that’s the taste that I have left in my mouth.
And when you said Burger King, I agree with that as well because the last time I had a Burger King experience was at the Honolulu Air —
An airport! Everyone has Burger King at an airport for some reason.
Alvin Cailan: Yeah. It was the worst thing I put in my mouth. And the same thing with Shake Shack, I love Shake Shack. Mark Rosati, is a friend of mine, but the fact that there are so many of them now and some of them are hit or miss when it comes to a burger. The problem that I have with that, is that it’s not cheap. So if I’m all in at 40, 50 bucks with two burgers, two fries, a milkshake, and a drink, and it’s awful — it hurts more than if I spent $20 at McDonald’s. You know what I mean? So that’s kind of where I stand.
George Motz: Well, I’ll be totally honest. I did actually go to McDonald’s recently, but it wasn’t for a burger. I was in LA and it was the end of the McRib. Remember the McRib?
I loved the McRib when I was a kid so much. I ate too many of them, but I sent my girlfriend in, so I could get one. I was hiding in the driver’s seat and she went in to get the McRib. If someone saw me in the parking lot, they’d be like, “What the…” And so I sent her in. She came out with the McRib. I felt the same way. I went, “Oh wow, I can’t believe I’m having this.” I sit back and went, “What happened?” I grew up. It just tasted like pure soap. It was like hot soap in my mouth. I don’t know. It was so bad. It was such a letdown. It was such a total letdown. And really, shame on McDonald’s for taking something that was so iconic and basically destroying it.
Alvin Cailan: I know, it’s so tragic.
I wanted to ask you guys a little bit about meat sourcing when it comes to burger blends. What, in your opinion, is the ideal burger blend? What should people who are maybe looking into making their own at home, what should they ask the butcher to be mixing?
George Motz: Ask the butcher. I mean, I can answer that too, but that’s the butcher first.
Alvin Cailan: Nowadays, if you live in a mega grocery store area, you can’t even ask them to do that for you anymore. Right? But I’m a big short rib or rib meat, chuck, and brisket guy. That’s the trinity for me. Some people like the sirloin aspect, as opposed to chuck with the same other two, brisket and short rib. But I’m more of a chuck guy because I feel like it has enough chew to it.
At the end of the day, straight-up chuck from the chuck roll, the ground is actually pretty phenomenal because of the muscle structure of the chuck.
You have the short rib piece in the Denver cut that’s connected to the short rib, and then you have the chuck eye, which is connected to the rib eye. So it has a lot of amazing cuts in itself within the chuck roll. So if you have a butcher that butchers straight up from the chuck, getting a chuck roll blend is the way to go. And it’s very affordable.
George Motz: Historically speaking, chuck and the chuck roll is what people would get from a butcher to grind or ask the butcher to grind because it was the easiest and it was the most consistent. They all knew that they got the chuck roll, or parts of the chuck, they would basically make the same burger every single time. It was also years ago, it was one of the most inexpensive cuts. Not anymore. It used to be very inexpensive.
I mean, bang for buck, it still is the greatest way to ensure that you’re going to make great burgers by just taking chuck and throwing it in your grinder, whether you’re commercially or at home, and making a great burger as a result.
Fat is king, obviously. So I always tell people that if you’re going to do anything, don’t go below 75%. Or don’t go above 75% lean, 25% fat. It’s probably a pretty good start. And people say, “Oh, I can’t find that at my store.” Well, there’s science behind it and there are actually some retailers now who will, I’ll shout out my friends at Schweid. I know Alvin loves Schweid, but they do sell pre-formed patties. And they’re basically hand-pattied balls of beef that are at 75, 25. And you can buy them at any store in America right now. It’s great.
When it comes to cheeseburgers, American or cheddar?
Alvin Cailan: Oh, that’s easy.
George Motz: Yeah. Three, two, one…
Alvin and George: American!
