David Simon and George Pelecanos know their way around telling a story. The pair previously collaborated on HBO’s The Wire and Treme, and their new show, The Deuce — which premieres Sunday at 9pm on HBO — takes a stark and unflinching look at the rise of the porn industry starting in the early 1970s. With a narrative as big and sprawling as its cast of characters, it takes its time to make sure every character has their story told. Two of these stories follow Darlene (Dominique Fishback) and Lori (Emily Meade) as they go from walking the streets of Times Square to performing in front of the camera. We recently got the chance to sit down with both actresses to talk about their nuanced approach to their characters, and the collaborative process with the show’s creative team.
Dominique, you were chosen for the show with this character in mind, weren’t you?
Dominique Fishback: I did Show Me A Hero with David Simon and Anita Noble for HBO in 2015, and [on] my last day, David pulled me aside and said, “I don’t know if you heard about my new show. It’s called The Deuce and I have a character with you in mind. I want you to read the script, and if you don’t want to do it, no harm, no foul.” So, now I read three scripts, and my character’s name was Sophie at the time, she’s Darlene now, but I read it and I was just like, “I have to do it.”
And Emily, how did you get involved?
Emily Meade: I go less romantic. I just auditioned, like you do. I was on [The Leftovers] previously, so I have a good relationship with HBO. But I went in and I auditioned for David and George and Michelle [MacLaren], who directed the pilot, and [Lori] is the one that I landed on.
Where you gunning for the role of Lori specifically?
Meade: The thing is I actually never ended up auditioning for that one.
Fishback: Really?
Meade: I auditioned for Candy, played by Maggie Gyllenhaal, and what’s Margarita’s character?
Fishback: Abby. The names changed so much. It was Maggie at first, and then we have a Maggie, so it changed to Abby.
Meade: And so David [and I] had a conversation about it. He was like, “This character is actually going to be the darkest and saddest of them. Do you want to do it,” and I said, “Of course.”
Each of your characters really represent two sides of the same coin. Darlene’s been in the game a while, but seems to be eyeing a way out.
Fishback: Do I want to get out?
She has some serious reservations, at least.
Fishback: Yeah, definitely.
Then Lori’s the “fresh-off-the-bus” type.
Meade: Diving in. I’m just looking for trouble.
What went into the preparation to play these characters?
Fishback: Well, I didn’t want to fall into that trap of playing a prostitute. There’s so many misconceptions. Obviously, they walk a different way. They have a different stride, but I didn’t want to think, ‘Well how would a prostitute say this or how would a prostitute walk?’ It was more of like she’s a sex worker no matter how I portray her because that it what she does. It is written like that. So now what I have to do is go to the heart of who she is. What’s underneath her job, what she really cares about. Then the rest is taken care of, because she’s a sex worker regardless. That’s how I approached her.
Meade: Yeah. I mean, I did do some research, and I read some things. I always kinda try to find the physicality. She’s from the Midwest, [so] little things like that help you kinda lead yourself. And then as far as just connecting to someone who would get into this industry fortunately or not to make any judgment. But I do connect, especially when I was younger, to seeking that kind of validation. Thinking that sex is a way to gain some sort of power, and kinda tricking yourself into thinking you’re in power when really you’re not. So, I just kinda connected to that part of myself, and the part of me that could go on that path had I led a different life. It was more of the psychological aspects of it that I think most people can ultimately connect to. And I don’t think that going down that road is such a completely foreign idea if you really look at it.
Does having a writers’ room that’s more diverse, as well as directors and producers who are women, help make these characters a little more well-rounded and dimensional on the page?
Fishback: I think it allows you to trust the dialogue more. I feel like with George Pelecanos and David Simon understand people, they understand humans. If this person is from New York then it’s gonna sound like it. If the person is from the Midwest then it’s gonna sound like it. Sometimes you go into projects, and as an actress it’s my responsibility to make sure that this character really sounds like where [they are] from, but you don’t have to worry about that with writers like David and George, so that was already a weight lifted off. So, now I could trust the dialogue more, I think.
Meade: This is my second series, and I’ve done more film, which is such a different experience because it’s one person and one crew. It’s one storyline. You know the beginning and the middle and the end of it, and you are working on that with one person. So, [with] TV, you’re constantly having new cooks come into the kitchen, which can be challenging because you’re trying to maintain or develop your character while new eyes are coming in. But that can be really enriching too, because new eyes are coming in and offering new perspective. Especially on the first season of a show when you’re figuring out the character, it can make you insecure, but also I walked away from the first season with such a deeper understanding of who the character was from my own ideas mixed with all these different people’s ideas.
So you were able to bring in some of your own input as well?
Fishback: I personally didn’t steer my character in any way because I didn’t really know what was going to happen. I got to shadow a director, Roxann Dawson, for episode six, but in doing that I didn’t get to really know where my character was going. When I found out that she would be taking off her wig for a certain reason then I put all of these different pictures of Pam Grier and Chaka Khan together, and I wrote why Darlene would have this kind of hair, and what this means to her. I sent that to [producer] Nina Norwood, and it was accepted, and I felt really empowered to know that I had a voice in where she was going.
Meade: When I first sat down with David to talk about this character, he told me his overall arc of it, and then basically said the rest was up to me as far as the backstory. The caveat is when you don’t know what is going to happen, you can’t really fully commit to anything because an episode can be written where suddenly it’s changed.
So, I think with the first season it’s a weird experience with riding the line of trying to make choices. And luckily because David and George, and all the writers are so smart, I feel like by the end I can tell in their writing that they were observing how I was perceiving this character and kinda lean into my ideas of it. I could see that they were seeing that, and then giving back to that. We weren’t producers on it like Maggie [Gyllenhaal], so you’re not necessarily having a conversation about it, but they’re observing and actually abiding by how you’re seeing it.
They are really open and really collaborative in a way that I’ve really never experienced. As far as any of the sexual content they let me come in, watch it, and give my opinion, and they made changes based on some of my thoughts. It been a really special experience in that way. They were having screenings for us while we were still making. Most shows are just not like that. They don’t even let you see the next scene let alone the next episode.
Fishback: Yeah. We got to see all eight.
Meade: They really want our voices heard, which is great.
Does the fact that it’s set in the early 1970s factor into playing these characters?
Fishback: I definitely read books about the ’70s, watched documentaries, and I looked up images. I put vision boards together for my character, so I got a sense of what they looked like in the ’70s, but I also feel like human beings are human being. So, I try not to think, ‘How would I do this a 70’s person?’ Just let me focus on the heart of this person, and let the wardrobe and the dialogue do that part for me.
Meade: Yeah, I agree. Fortunately for me I’ve always been very drawn to the ’70s, as far as films, music, the culture, and the fashion. So, I kinda had researched it my whole life. But I’ve done other period things before, and I feel like I’ve definitely become very obsessed with finding the right way of speaking. That’s always something that perplexes me. You’re never going to exist in that pervious time, so you’re like, ‘Oh, I think that’s how they talked in the 1920s because that’s how they talked in the movie.’ But that’s how they talked in the movie, not necessarily in real life.
So, for me it’s finding some kind of combination of what I’ve seen in film, and inhabiting the idea of that time and how you would change your stance or way of speaking and presenting yourself. But eventually you just have to let go and let the writing do it for you. [Otherwise] you can obsess over that to a dangerous degree.
Fishback: I think the documentaries really help that a lot, just watch people just be, as opposed to acting on a film. But I give music to all my scenes. So when I do my scenes I kinda make summaries about them and where Darlene is at the time, and then I’ll find the perfect song that will represent [that]. Like I found a theme song for Darlene for the whole series, which is “Darlene” by Led… Led… what’s his name?
Meade: Led Zeppelin?
Fishback: Yes, that guy. It was like perfect. “Come here young girl with the little dress…” It was really perfect. That just matches.
Meade: Right? Darlene.
Fishback: I gotta find another song.
Meade: I’ll help you.
I have to ask, when you’re on set, does it feel as immersive as it looks on screen?
Meade: To me it does. It was very degrading. Working at four in the morning on the street with johns walking around talking to you. It feels a little frightening. Especially because a lot of it is shot from cameras all the way across the street, and there’s a lot of time walking up and down the street interacting with some random guy who’s coming up to you and asking you for sex. It’s a little dark. It’s scary.
Fishback: One time where I was being Darlene, and talking to an extra, and then I was like, “Yeah, so you wanna…?” He was like, “Yeah, do you wanna get out of here? What’s your number?” I was so embarrassed because I wasn’t really trying to get his number or take him home.
Meade: It’s a confusing line.
Obviously there’s been a lot of buzz about this series already, but what are you both hoping viewers take away?
Meade: Obviously you want people to be entertained and enthralled, but I think what’s really amazing about the way David and George tell this story, or any story, is it’s literally just telling the story. It’s not a warning. It’s not glorifying. It’s just showing the facts in a really detailed and nuanced way. Then you can take away whatever you want from it. So, this is a very important but uncomfortable subject. There’s a lot of shame, a lot of embarrassment, and secretive nature surrounding it, [but] it’s not an exposé. It’s really just a historical education on where this all began.
Fishback: I agree with Emily. You see a lot on Twitter they think you are glorifying the life or perpetuating violence against women, and I think people who say that are people who haven’t seen the pilot yet. They care so much about human beings and telling their story. It’s about what actually happened, but not about putting a judgment on it. Kinda just giving you the facts, and saying ‘Here it is,’ and showing you [the] history. And history has a way of repeating itself, so [let’s] not shy away from what happened and talk about it. I think great discussions will come from it. I’m really excited.
